In Lars von Trier's latest film, Nicole Kidman plays a woman on the run who seeks shelter in the fictional American town of Dogville. Von Trier draws parallels between the script and the new, tougher Danish immigration policy.

By Marit Kapla.

Lars von Trier on the set of Dogville. Photo by Henrik Andersson.

We met Lars von Trier two weeks before Christmas 2001. He had come to a winter-grey Trollhätten, Sweden, to supervise the completion of the set of Dogville, and to finalize details before the start of filming. During his two weeks in southwestern Sweden, he's also had a chance to go hunting here. Hence his forest-green clothes.

Like Dancer in the Dark, Dogville is being produced by Vibeke Windeløv for Zentropa, which von Trier and Peter Aalbaek Jensen founded in 1992. Production began in Trollhätten in January 2002 in a gigantic hangar in the NOHAB industrial area located near the offices of Film i Väst, one of the film's co-producers.

The most spectacular aspect of Dogville—apart from the superstar status of its leading lady—is its bare, economical form. The film will have many affinities to theater. In the large studio, carpenters have built a stage floor covered with coarse black carpeting. On it, von Trier has drawn buildings with thick white lines. It looks like the floor of a school gymnasium.

Beyond these markings, there is not much scenery. Each building has some symbolic feature of 1930s’ American film sets—a wall with shabby wallpaper, an old iron-frame bed, a shop counter, and the top of a spire hanging in the air, which represents a chapel. In conceiving Dogville, von Trier was inspired by a song from Bertolt Brecht's The Threepenny Opera—an early version of which, according to Kurt Weill's widow, singer and actress Lotte Lenya, was "not a full play but a cycle of songs" tied together by a dramatic narrative "about an imaginary city on Florida's Gold Coast, called Mahagonny."1

Marit Kapla: Was the hunting good?

Lars von Trier: It was fine, but there wasn't much to shoot at. But I was able to hunt on the Royal beat—the beat the King usually takes. We were at Hunnegerg. It was really beautiful.

Kapla: Do you get new ideas at this stage of the film process, or have you already planned everything for the filming of Dogville?

von Trier: I take great pains not to decide too much beforehand. I want the work with the actors to be as open as possible. While we are filming, I work all the time, so now I'm relaxing a little. I took a drink at lunchtime, that's very nice! [He laughs.]

Kapla: What came first in the new film, the story about the people in Dogville, or the form?

von Trier: The story is based on a text by Bertolt Brecht. It's a song [the "Pirate Jenny" song from The Threepenny Opera] that I'm sure you know, about a ship that comes to a harbor. It has 50 cannons and many masts. [von Trier's cell phone rings, playing a familiar tune. He answers, but there is no response].

Kapla: What a good tune!

von Trier: Yes, it's the Internationale!

Kapla: Tell us more about the Brecht song.

von Trier: It's about a servant girl at an inn. She sees the ship come in. It attacks the town, and the only survivor is the girl.

It's a story of revenge. Although she is the lowliest inhabitant of the town, the ship comes to wreak vengeance on its people because they've treated her badly. I wrote the manuscript before I decided on the form.

A framed sketch of Dogville drawn by Lars von Trier, in the office of Zentropa's managing director. Photo by Henrik Andersson

Kapla: What prompted you to choose this bare symbolic form?

von Trier: I came upon it while I was fishing—I don't know why it happened just then. The story is about a town, and you can see a town as a map. So I thought, why not make the film in that way. So, I've painted the buildings on the ground.

We found that this concept has many advantages. For example, as there are only symbolic walls, we can see through them and follow what other townspeople are doing all the time.

We concentrate on the characters completely, as there are so few other elements involved. When you have seen the film, you should know more about the town than if the film had been shot in a real town. The idea is that the town should take form in the audience's imagination.

Kapla: When I saw the map of Dogville you had drawn, in Peter Aalbaek Jensen's office, I thought of Tolkien. In his books he was very particular about the maps of his ficticious countries.

von Trier: I've never read Tolkien. I know that many people are very enthusiastic about him, but he was not a source of inspiration. However, there is another source, and that is the film of the Royal Shakespeare Company's production of Nicholas Nickleby. It was a long performance that was very stylized and was very interesting. It was a great experience for me in the '70s.

Kapla: When I've talked about the stylized form of Dogville with friends, some of them have been reminded of the German expressionists and the film The Cabinet of Dr. Caligari.

von Trier: Yes, that's also stylized, but this will be even more naked. It's a really theatrical form. Over the years film has developed away from theater.

Kapla: So you want to bring film back to the theater?

von Trier: You might compare it to fashion. If long skirts are in fashion, we reject short skirts. One of my principles is to try to be open to what film can be, without worrying too much about what it is just now. There are obvious qualities in the stylized Nicholas Nickleby that filmmakers currently ignore. That's why I think it is fun to take up the form again.

Kapla: Dogville takes place in the U.S., like Dancer in the Dark. Why did you choose the U.S. again?

von Trier: I allow myself to be provoked. I was very provoked by lots of American journalists in Cannes. They were angry that I'd made a film about the USA although I hadn't been there. So I thought, that's fine. At last! Now I'm going to make lots of American films. [He laughs.]

I also thought that it might be interesting for the Americans, and for others, to find out how someone who's never been there sees America. If it were my country, Denmark, I would like to know what someone who hadn't been there thought. Perhaps they'd only think of the Little Mermaid, or that polar bears roam around there. How should I know? In any case, it's interesting to have one's country illuminated. I didn't think it was such a great sin. Besides, that is just what American filmmakers have always done.

Kapla: You mean they've portrayed countries they've never visited?

von Trier: Yes, always. Of course, they never went to Casablanca. That's why I find it difficult to understand why we may not reciprocate.

Kapla: Why did you choose to set the film in the '30s and not the present?

von Trier: There are elements in the Brecht song which need an isolated community, and the Depression was a good setting for this story. Also, my experience has been that if you choose a time other than the present, the film becomes more realistic. In some way it becomes more like a documentary and assumes greater authority.

Kapla: All of Dogville turns against Nicole Kidman's character, Grace, doesn't it?

von Trier: I'd rather not say too much about what happens in the film, but it's about someone who comes into town from outside. She is on the run, and that is parallel to the immigration debate. She intrudes on them in their hometown, but at the same time, she is vulnerable and has no other choice. I never thought the film would be a contribution to the immigration debate, but many parallels may be drawn. My parents were refugees in Sweden during the war. I think that the moral standing of a country can be measured by its attitude towards refugees. It's not that Sweden was so special in that respect, but my parents were very happy that they could come here then, and I have always felt a bond with Sweden. Denmark is awful at the moment.

Kapla: Yes. The Danish election was a success for those who want a tougher immigration policy.

von Trier: I think it's shameful, especially as we are one of the richest countries in the world. It is contemptible. The liberalism that that they are all so proud of is based on the freedom to move to where the opportunities exist. When the poor people of the world see how we live, it's hardly surprising that they try to get here. It's only human nature. I think it is very dangerous to try to solve these problems merely by drawing boundaries. It is immoral and stupid. Of course, the problems get bigger and bigger and finally there's an eruption. These problems must be tackled with a humanitarian approach. It's the only way.

Kapla: The subject is of immediate interest because of the European Union's boundaries policy.

von Trier: The biggest problem is the unfair distribution of wealth in the world. There have always been boundaries. In one way or another, we will be forced to think internationally.

Kapla: You said before that Dogville is a story about revenge. Is that the central theme?

Nicole Kidman and Paul Bettany in Dogville.

von Trier: Brecht's song is about revenge. The film portrays what happens when vengeance is wreaked. The film has a theme similar to [the themes] in my other films, except this woman doesn't turn the other cheek.

The gender politics are different—if you want to use that terminology. I've been accused of being cliché "macho," haven't I? Now, perhaps this is a cliché in the other direction. What do I know? [He laughs.]

Of course, that's not why I'm making the film. My mother was chairwoman of the Danish Women's Union. I've been very influenced by her. She was against [affirmative action] in principle because she thought women won nothing by getting a job only because of their sex and not their qualifications.

When you get older you realize that your opinions are becoming more and more like those of your parents. When you’re young, you distance yourself from them, but slowly and inevitably. My mother was a communist and my father was a social democrat, so it's quite clear where I will end up. I do have the Internationale on my cell phone. [He laughs.]

Kapla: Why did you choose Nicole Kidman for the main part?

von Trier: She wanted to be in one of my films. I said she could be in this one. I wrote the role largely for her, although I didn't know her. I believe she is right in the part, and I'm very pleased she is with us.

Kapla: She is incredibly beautiful.

von Trier: Yes, but other qualities are required for this film. We won't be working with controlled lighting like in a music video or Moulin Rouge. Our filming will be less controlled, but she knows that. It won't be glamorous, but I think she realizes that.

Kapla: Are there special demands on you now, compared with when you direct a Danish cast?

von Trier: This is something entirely different. In your own language you can use so many nuances. But the big experiment here—what is exceptional—is that the team of actors will be on stage all the time, because there are no walls between the buildings. We are going to live together, like a collective. It will be fun to see how it works out. It won't be like in Dancer in the Dark, when often I only worked with the main characters. This time all twenty actors will be working simultaneously.

Kapla: Was the place name, Dogville, your idea?

von Trier: Yes, with the help of some friends. [However,] they said it was not [proper] English. It should be Dogsville. I think that's interesting—another blunder by a non-American filmmaker. I believe in these small faults. They humanize the project and put things in perspective.

Kapla: Is there any symbolism in the meaning of the title—dog town?

von Trier: It will probably become apparent, I'm afraid. In any case, there is a dog in the town.

Kapla: Is there a dog buried? [meaning, Is there a skeleton in the closet?]

von Trier: One might think so. But it's not buried so deep.

1. Lotte Lenya, "That was a Time!" (Theatre Arts, May 1956). Back to article.

This interview is excerpted from "Von Trier in Dogville," which first appeared in Film Factory (Film i Vast, Sweden, 2002).

Marit Kapla is a freelance journalist in Sweden and editor of Film Factory.

Film i Vast was founded to foster and promote filmmaking in southwestern Sweden. Located in Trollätten—or Trollywood, as it has been dubbed by the media—Film i Vast has grown into a formidable production company, co-producing more than 50 Swedish and international films over the past five years, including Lukas Moodyson's Show Me Love and Together, Lars von Trier's Dancer in the Dark, and Josef Fares's Jalla! Jalla! Film Factory was published in celebration of Film i Vast's 10th anniversary.